Episode 50: Chris F'n Rose on Building a Legal Empire by Breaking Every Rule

0:00Chris Rose: I would walk into rooms and people would go, Chris Rose. Then people started going, Chris fucking Rose. Life is about sales. You're always selling something, selling yourself, selling your business, selling your time. So much about life is just going with the flow, just listening to what people are telling you. In business, that's what I solve. What are your problems? Just talk to me. What is the path of least resistance here? And then how can I systemize and optimize and scale that? I didn't choose that myself. People started calling me that.

0:43Tara Lee: Hey, y'all. Tara Lee live from Miami Beach at NTL. This is Hot Docket Live. Chris effing Rose. Hey, Chris.

1:00Chris Rose: Hey, Tara.

1:01Tara Lee: Thanks so much for joining the MeanPug podcast here at NTL in Miami.

1:05Chris Rose: I can't tell you how appreciative I am that you invited me. Thank you very much.

1:09Tara Lee: I heard it was a little bit of a journey for you to get here today.

1:11Chris Rose: It was. I had to go through Detroit.

1:13Tara Lee: But you were so dedicated because this podcast meant a lot for you to be on it, right?

1:16Chris Rose: It is pretty much the only reason for my existence. The culmination of my life's efforts.

1:23Tara Lee: So we've been talking to a lot of people here at this conference on the podcast. I was just reminiscing about how I met you. This was three years ago, maybe, at the Colorado Trial Lawyers Association. I was working for this legal startup tech company. And you're at the booth or attending across the way. And you just came in and you swooped in, came behind the booth. You sat next to me and was like, give me your spiel. And I've honestly never been approached like that before, like in this space. And it just felt, it didn't feel forced. It didn't feel, you know, like weird or anything. And I was like, wow, like this guy has some confidence. He's coming in through. You've obviously got like a huge fan following. You've got this good presence online.

2:12Chris Rose: So I think you meant OnlyFans.

2:15Tara Lee: That's my experience in meeting you. And so thank you so much for joining us. Happy to call you a friend. But tell us about, you're an attorney, your journey. And like what brought you to law and where you're at right now.

2:25Chris Rose: Oh, wow. I wanted to go into politics. And I like networks. I like relationships. And I love systems. I went into politics. I became a lobbyist. And it's just being a lawyer of a different color.

2:38Tara Lee: I did lobbying too. I don't know if you know that about me. And I did two legislative sessions in Texas. And I was like, I'm good, you know? Deuces. Yeah.

2:49Chris Rose: Yeah, exactly. For Nevada. I think we talked about that a little bit. That's how we connect, or one of the ways. Then I was approached at a conference by Steno. They do court reporting. And they said, you're really good at this. Why don't you come work in our marketing department? And I was looking for a change. So I went to work with them and learned sales and marketing over four years. They helped me to increase my network and get to know people. And life is about sales. You're always selling something. Selling yourself. Selling your business. Selling your time. Without them, I wouldn't be the charismatic individual I am. And to have the name, the brand that I am. Can I say it now? Can I say it?

3:31Tara Lee: Oh, yeah.

3:31Chris Rose: Chris fucking Rose.

3:33Tara Lee: Yeah. Everybody knows.

3:34Chris Rose: That's who I am. I get one more chance to say it. Look, I just want to own a yacht. So bad. Not because I like yachts or boats. They're like, you just throw away money. But when I have enough money to throw it away on a yacht, that's how I will know I've made it. And so I'm never going to do that working for someone else.

3:52Chris Rose: So I'm a lawyer. I thought about what type of law can I practice without actually practicing law. And then that's when it occurred to me. Mailbox money. Just work on referrals. And so that's what I do now. I help law firms refer out cases. And it's so much better than being a lawyer. God, don't talk to clients. They're the worst. So this is great.

4:14Tara Lee: I will say I did get invited on a yacht while I was here. But instead, we're doing this very brilliant podcast. So maybe one day both of us will get to experience some yacht life.

4:27Chris Rose: I promise one day I will invite you on my yacht.

4:30Tara Lee: Perfect.

4:31Chris Rose: I've already got the name picked out.

4:32Tara Lee: Let's hear it.

4:33Chris Rose: Diddy Party.

4:35Tara Lee: Okay.

4:35Chris Rose: So that way when it is invariably in the news, people are going to be like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, what did you expect? What did you think I was going to do with that boat?

4:47Tara Lee: So you're talking about, you now are working in legal referrals. So tell us a little bit about your company.

4:53Chris Rose: Oh, yeah. Okay. So LegalFlare. I take the cases that other law firms originate and have to turn down for whatever reason, whether they think it's not a case or it's not in their case type, their practice area, or even their jurisdiction. And I move that to a network of attorneys that I have established. And they review each one of those in turn. And sometimes they sign them. Right now, we're about 15% conversion rate on personal injury, 11% on work comp, and 7% on employment law. And so for cases that would otherwise be turned down, it's great. Like, this way I can leverage the marketing of other firms instead of trying to compete against them.

5:38Andrew Nasrinpay: Do you do anything that's non-contingency work with your network, like family law or anything along those lines, or it's only the contingency side?

5:46Chris Rose: It's primarily contingency. Contingency, there's, in Nevada, maybe once a year, somebody will fall into my radar who needs like a...

5:56Andrew Nasrinpay: That's where you're from.

5:57Chris Rose: Exactly. I'm in Las Vegas.

5:58Andrew Nasrinpay: Okay.

5:58Chris Rose: And so they will, you know, call me up or someone needs it. And I refer them to someone in my network. But otherwise, it's just not worth it. Contingency pays more. And two, it's not only the brokering that I do. It's also relationship management. So I track these firms. We have accountability. We know exactly how they're performing because I make more money when everybody maximizes conversion rates and case values. And so it's not just sending it out into the ether like some of the other case referral platforms or marketplaces. You know, like you always say, like, you might sell an old pair of Reeboks on eBay. You know, you just throw it out there. You need these relationships to know who are the really good partners. And a lot of it's just like...

6:41Tara Lee: Like, do these shoes smell or are they fresh?

6:43Chris Rose: Sure. Oh, man. Sometimes they reek. Believe me. But the really good ones, you still... I had a case recently. It was a six-figure commercial policy because the law enforcement cited our client. And I sent it out. It had already been declined. But it was sent to me. Sent it out to someone who went and got the video. And it turned out to be a huge case. We all did well. And that started with a case that had originally been declined. So it didn't cost them anything to send it to me just to have it reviewed. I like to think of myself as a layer of redundancy.

7:23Andrew Nasrinpay: Do you have those firms' criteria on file? Or how are you matching the two?

7:30Chris Rose: Define those firms. Do you mean the firms that originate, like my ideal client profile, or the firms that...

7:35Andrew Nasrinpay: The firms that receive it.

7:37Chris Rose: The firms that receive it. So we go through an accountability. First, we have the introduction. Who are you? How are you? And I'll be honest. I'll just lay it out there. Where from the very first moment we hear from them, we are grading them. How quickly do they respond? How eager are they? How quickly did they schedule a meeting? How is it in the meeting? We're taking notes. And then if they seem like a good fit for us, then we say, okay, we're going to do the onboarding. And then it's like, how quickly did they respond? How quickly did they give us the documents? You know, the proof of malpractice insurance, the proof of attorney in good standing. How quickly did they schedule the onboarding? Were they attentive in the onboarding? These are all good things. At least to start.

8:16Chris Rose: And then when we put them in, they go to the bottom tier. They are not the priority firms. But we have a system where it's kind of like a waterfall. And the better that they do, they move up. And firms fall out all the time. It blows my mind how hard firms work at being bad.

8:38Tara Lee: Is there other criteria besides those initial kind of responsiveness and the things that you're asking for that you're kind of judging as you're...

8:48Chris Rose: The things that really good, robust intake is great. Or who is doing your intake? So if they have a great intake system where they've got several people all looking at this, they're super responsive. These leads go out right away. And we track how long from the time we send it to them to when they look at it. And then how long it takes them to decline it. Because at first I thought that time to acceptance would be better. But actually time to decline, as long as they're making a decision, I can route that to another firm. Each lead usually gets at least three looks. And so the faster we can get that moved on to the next firm, the more likely it is, if it is a case, that it stays alive. Because if they're taking their time to look at this and bet it, that's just time that it's out there potentially withering on the vine. And so intake. Intake is huge.

9:37Tara Lee: We've talked to a lot of people about this. Is it a pain point, right?

9:40Andrew Nasrinpay: What does your tech stack look like to basically receive that information from the firms that are discarding these leads? Like how are you doing that? Are you using a ping post system? Are you custom building something in Salesforce?

9:53Chris Rose: How technical do you want to get into this?

9:56Andrew Nasrinpay: Go a high level. Let's say I'm a firm and I want to integrate with your software. Is it point and click? Or are we getting developers involved? And same thing, where if I want to be the receiver of cases, what do I have to do?

10:09Chris Rose: I'm developing all this myself. I'm a lawyer by training. But now with AI, it is incredible what is possible. Just on the flight here, I created a system that now accesses our leads inbox, parses through the data, determines what the body is. It can tell the case type, who it came from, jurisdiction. And then it routes it into our system. Then that system determines where it goes. It tracks everything. I can't tell you how incredibly sophisticated this is. And it's all custom. I've done all of this myself. And it's all done with Claude Code.

10:52Chris Rose: I don't know how deep you like to get into it. But Claude Code, I built my own AI assistant. So cool, I call him Kato, if anybody's a Green Hornet fan. And he does everything, answers my emails, Slack messages, speaks to my manager of operations who has her own AI assistant. It is just incredible the speed at which I can build software for handling this.

11:19Chris Rose: And so the next phase is when replies are sent to us. It's already doing this a little bit. But when replies are sent to us, it then can tell what that reply means. Does it mean the case is accepted or they're investigating or what do the updates mean? And so right now I'm developing that. The next step that I'm working on after this, I mean, it'll probably be two weeks away at the speed we're going, is integrations. One of my largest firms that is going to be sending but is also receiving has Clio. And so I'm going to see how I can integrate with them. But right now, API connections are lightning fast. And I can create all of this just, I mean, you give me 12 hours and I can build something that would blow your socks off.

12:04Andrew Nasrinpay: So right now you're integrated with the Litify, Filevine?

12:08Chris Rose: I'm not, actually. I'm not integrated with any of them. That is the next step that I'm going to be working on because I have to go in and see what their API connections look like. I have to look at how they format their payloads when they come in, how to parse that so it can go into my system. And all of that's easy enough to figure out. The first thing is I just, I have to have someone that wants to use that. Then the second part is figuring out how they send me the information or how I need to send the information to them. But it's really quite simple. It's just a matter of, I mean, the biggest step is just, you know, project analysis, project requirements, and then implementation.

12:42Andrew Nasrinpay: Right now, on average, like an average day, how many leads are moving across the platform?

12:49Chris Rose: I'd have to ask my manager of operations. We do a little over 300 leads per month right now.

12:57Andrew Nasrinpay: So I guess 10 per day?

13:00Chris Rose: Yeah, I mean, if you include this, or weekends.

13:02Tara Lee: A lot of people, trial lawyers, plaintiff lawyers in this space know you. I think you go to more legal conferences than pretty much anybody else, right? I think you guys even send out, I was subscribed, I think at one point, to your trial lawyer calendar of events that you're going to. So I don't know if you're ever home. So being in this space and being on the road all the time, you've been to all these different states and national events. We're at an event right now. So I'm curious to hear, what are your top events? What have been the most successful? You know, some of them might have great attendance, but not a lot of really spaces to interact, or maybe not a lot of engagement from the attendees there. So I want to hear from the guy who's out on these streets. Like, what are your top...

13:53Chris Rose: Yeah, no, happy to spill my guts. So we should first establish criteria. What is the point of these conferences? For me, a large part of it is establishing authority and credibility through relationships. Because you know I film myself on these, like all the time taking photos with everyone. And this shows who I'm talking to, who is in my network, who I have access to, and that accepts me. And so that shows authority. Anybody that's watching, because there are so many people that are just silently watching all of this. So anywhere that people that are well-established have a lot of authority, those are really good for me just to get my name out.

14:36Chris Rose: And then on top of that, to be able to basically pick up the pearls of wisdom. Like, I've been a huge fan of Jen Gore forever. I love everything that she does, who she is, what she represents. And I've just been a disciple of Jen Gore forever. And going to these conferences has helped me to pick up information from her. Mike Morse has been great to me. And I've been able to learn so much.

15:02Chris Rose: So the best conferences are the ones that are usually national and bring people who are willing to talk about their businesses. And so NTL is fantastic. I also love CAALA Vegas, because CAALA Vegas is a party. LawDi Gras has actually been really good. I know it's a party disguised as a conference, but it's been great in terms of networking. I really love MTMP, not really because of the material, but because of who shows up. And then, I mean, that's a party, too. So those are all Tier 1. Tier 2.

15:36Tara Lee: So you just listed a bunch of parties.

15:38Chris Rose: I did. I did. I don't know if you're picking up on my vibe right now. And then below that, I would say Tier 2 are the marketing ones. So maybe like PILMMA is pretty good. What are some of the other? Like TBI Med Legal is, you know, it's a mix. And then Tier 3 are usually the Trial Lawyers Associations.

16:00Tara Lee: Yeah, I'm sure about your top states.

16:02Chris Rose: Oh, well, I do. God, I love Denver. So Colorado is really good. Texas is fun. I mean, I am prohibited by law from saying anything bad about the Nevada Justice Association. I love them to death. If I had to say anything to balance it out, it is that trial lawyers are usually terrible business people. And so when I go to these and want to talk to them about business, they're idiots. They've got, I mean, they're all running their businesses into the ground. And if the margins in personal injury were not so high, they won't be for long. And we can talk about that because the cataclysm is coming. But if their margins were not so high, they would not have successful businesses. That is just how it is.

16:45Chris Rose: And with the way things are going, with efficiency gains, with market consolidation, and especially autonomous vehicles coming, we are going to see those margins begin to narrow. And so these firms, these solitary, you know, two, three, four, five trial lawyer firms, only litigate, only take all the referrals. You're going to see a lot of them begin to fall by the wayside just because the margins aren't going to be as good as they used to be. I mean, when autonomous vehicles come out, that's going to kill so much of the industry. And if they're not paying attention, I mean, like...

17:27Andrew Nasrinpay: It doesn't even need to drop the volume that much for it to have a big impact. Let's say you just put it on trucking and trucking went away. There goes a large portion of the big cases, the commercial claims. Same thing with Uber, Lyft. So if you get trucking and Uber, Lyft, there goes all the good cases pretty much.

17:48Chris Rose: You're right. You are exactly right. The oasis is drying up. And those that aren't paying attention are going to be the ones that die out. When people say, you know, is AI going to take my job? If you ask that, the answer is yes. If you are thinking, how can I use AI to get better at my job? That's the question. That is the paradigm that you must, I won't even say adopt because it's something that's innate with most people. But that's what's coming. 10, 15 years. This world is going to look so different. So different. And most people just, like, they don't see that right now. They're not paying attention.

18:27Andrew Nasrinpay: Okay. So over time, I think everyone here pretty much agrees that cars are becoming safer. Accidents will become less prevalent. How do you think that's going to impact, like, employment cases with the way labor is going to shift a bit? How do you see AI impacting, like, the current caseloads with employment claims?

18:49Chris Rose: I don't see it affecting it that much because employment law cases don't stem from AI. They more stem from employers who are assholes. And so they discriminate against their employees. They fire them when they get pregnant. Or they fire them for whistleblower. Or they don't pay them as much as they should. You know, they force them to work off the clock. Those aren't things that, I mean, maybe AI will help to regulate that a little bit. But those are all just bad business practices.

19:24Andrew Nasrinpay: You don't think that those things would happen at a higher rate if companies are laying folks off due to needing less employees because of AI? You don't think that the claims will increase?

19:35Chris Rose: Everybody's so mad at their boss. So the majority of leads I receive by, I mean, probably 60% of the leads I receive are employment law. And yet I said employment law rates are 7%. It's because my boss wouldn't give me my birthday off. I want to sue him. My boss fired me for calling a customer the, you know, see you next Tuesday. I want to sue him. And so, like, these aren't reasons that you get to sue your boss. But everybody thinks they can sue their boss for it. So I don't see that really being affected.

20:09Tara Lee: So, Chris.

20:11Chris Rose: Ask the question, Tara.

20:13Tara Lee: You are, I met you as Chris Rose. And this is before you became kind of known for, you go to these conferences, like I said, you're at all of them, right? On your badge, it's not just Chris Rose. It's Chris F.N. Rose. Where did that come from? And what's the story behind that?

20:33Chris Rose: So when I went to law school, I was, like, wearing a tie and looking sharp. And I'm Chris. Or I said, actually, I'm, yeah, I look better now. And I tried to go by Christopher. Like, I'm sophisticated now. I'm a professional. I'm Christopher. And everybody in my class was, like, Chris Rose. Chris Rose. Like, it just defaults. People prefer two syllables when you refer to someone. That's just how it is.

21:02Tara Lee: That's me, dearly. You know?

21:03Chris Rose: I get it. And so I was, like, fine. I'm Chris Rose. And then I started going to more and more conferences. And as I began to find myself and step into this personality, this persona, I started going, you know, Chris Rose. And I would walk into rooms and people would go, Chris Rose. And so I just listened to what people were saying. And then the more I started going to conferences, then people started going, Chris fucking Rose.

21:31Chris Rose: And so much about life is just going with the flow. Just listening to what people are telling you. Like, in business, that's what I solve. Like, what are your problems? Just talk to me. What is the path of least resistance here? And then how can I systemize and optimize and scale that? That's really the genesis of it. I didn't choose that myself. People started calling me that. And it actually happened when I went to the Nevada Justice Association's conference. And the person doing the name tags was a friend of mine. And so that's how she wrote it out. And that's how it came to be.

22:13Tara Lee: Do you know, it's, we've been doing a lot of these. And kind of the like common theme or thread here has been being your true authentic self. And not even like, oh, I'm going to be Chris F.N. Rose. It was just happening and just leaning into that, right? And it being about like your brand. And I mean, everybody knows you as that now, right? And it's cool and different. I'm like, is he allowed to even put that on his name badge?

22:39Chris Rose: I'm allowed to put that. I think what we're talking about is being pulled in a direction. And I studied a lot of Taoism when I was younger. And I still subscribe to a large portion of that, you know, the going with the flow. It's like, if you try to swim upstream, you're only going to tire yourself out. But if you allow yourself just to float, see where it takes you, you can do usually quite well, as long as it's not over like a cliff or something. But you got to be aware of that.

23:11Tara Lee: You know, we had a woman attorney on earlier today that was talking about in law school, you got to wear a black, blue, brown suit, no pink, no lipstick. And she was like, you know what? I'm going to be me and I'm going to do what I'm going to do. And she's doing great. You've kind of broken away from that. But I think a lot of people in this industry, whether you're a lawyer or you're a legal professional, kind of feels constrained by those like norms or whatever. But I think, I don't know, with our guests earlier and with you, you're kind of breaking out of that. So for other lawyers who are feeling like, like, I don't want to have, you know, fit into that box. What advice would you give them?

23:53Chris Rose: This is something that I struggle with quite often because I am always shouting from the mountaintops. Like, you don't have to be what other people, you don't have to be constrained by the systems that we are a part of. And I tell my friends all the time, especially my friends that are defense attorneys, and I hate every one of them. But I always say that you have to, like, think, if I had to boil it down to anything, it's find what you love and do more of that. Discover, realize, recognize what you hate and do less of that.

24:38Chris Rose: Now, I mean, it sounds so flippant, but even on like a daily, minute basis, just like pushing those things aside, and I found that my zone of genius where I operate best is when I'm doing things that I love, that get me excited, that give me that, like, endorphin high. And the things that I don't like doing, I typically procrastinate until, like, somebody else does them or it breaks. And that's because that's, I'm not going to do well what I don't like doing.

25:14Chris Rose: And so when I talk to these defense attorneys specifically who are all, you know, trying to make partner and all of the people above them are yelling at them and they're just in these super toxic environments. And I want to say, like, you don't have to do that. Like, there's so much more. You just embrace the unknown. Get uncomfortable. Push yourself. And then you can grow and get comfortable being uncomfortable. Like, that's the biggest thing. But that's not for a lot of people. A lot of people are very turned off by being uncomfortable and they will never be comfortable for them.

25:56Chris Rose: So for those people that are uncomfortable right now, I would say stop that. Just what are your options? If you've got value, you're, if you're a lawyer and you're worried, like, you're never going to be homeless. Like, that's not something that's going to happen to you. Your floor of value is so high that even if you lose your job, somebody is always going to want to give you a job because you're a lawyer. Good Lord. What is the worst that's going to happen? You're not going to be on welfare. So take that chance. Like, jump. You're going to be okay. The worst is still far better than most people's best. So just lean into that. Like, I just go. I just go. I go. And I have the confidence of someone who's not often proven wrong. And that's because I just, I go into it and my thought is, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. And eventually you just get comfortable being uncomfortable, you know, swimming in the unknown and figuring it out. And I think that's the biggest part.

27:03Andrew Nasrinpay: Well, the people have spoken. It's Chris fucking Rose. And if you don't want to take certain cases, you can pass them off to Chris and he'll be able to find them a home. He doesn't sound like he's scared about it at all.

27:15Chris Rose: Real good ways to find me. The first is chris.rose at legalflare.com or go to legalflare.com. You can, you know, find out all about me. Or you can turn off the lights and speak my name into the mirror three times and I will appear. It's just one of the, it's one of those parties.

27:33Tara Lee: I'm not even going to try that out. That sounds terrible.

27:36Chris Rose: But I will say there's a waiting list. I really appreciate you guys, especially inviting me in the first place. That really means a lot to me. And then accommodating me as I battled the airlines. So thank you guys.

27:48Tara Lee: This was a wacky week for travel. Yeah. So glad that you made it.

27:51Chris Rose: Chris fucking Rose. Chris fucking Rose. Chris fucking Rose.

27:57Tara Lee: What is your favorite podcast?

27:59Chris Rose: Hot Docket by me.

28:01Tara Lee: That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you for watching Hot Docket live from NTL Miami.