Turning Referrals Into Law Firm Growth

0:00Narrator: Ladies and gentlemen, tonight's spotlight shines on the rising stars of the legal world, where young firms, bold ideas, and smarter systems take center stage. Standing tall at the intersection of law and leadership, he's the digital strategist, the legal growth architect, the man with the mic. Make some noise for your host. This is Legal Currents with Will McCreight.

0:26Will McCreight: All right, welcome back to another episode of the Legal Currents podcast. Today we have a very, very special guest, somebody that I have had the pleasure of getting to know over the past couple of years, somebody I greatly admire, also one of the best looking people that you'll meet in the space, not just saying that because people call us twins, the founder of LegalFlare, Chris fucking Rose. Chris, thanks for joining.

0:54Chris Rose: Hey, Will. Before we begin, I knew about your podcast before I knew you. And so this is a moment for me. Like I one day hoped to be on your podcast even before we'd become friends. So I really appreciate you inviting me.

1:15Will McCreight: That's great to hear. I'll slip you 20 bucks that I promised for that after the show. Yeah. Well, Chris, you are somebody who I, there is no way for me to like properly introduce you. You are like that incredible of a person. Let's start by just tell everybody a little bit about who you are. I know you have a really cool journey. But first, why don't we start by just giving everybody sort of a summary of what you guys do at LegalFlare.

1:42Chris Rose: So Chris fucking Rose, we are the referral firm. We take all of the cases, all of the leads that other firms would turn down because they can't take them for case type or jurisdiction or they need to refer them out into litigation. They don't have those partners. We take all of that. We manage all of those referrals. And that way, most people don't realize, they think of mailbox money. You know, you send out these leads and like you just get money in return. No, that's not true. Like case referrals are fucking hard, man, because you got to administration compliance. You got to babysit all these lawyers, make sure that they're following up on everything. And so LegalFlare takes care of all of that. So we really try to make mailbox money an actual thing.

2:34Will McCreight: Yeah. And it's something that I just see time and time again to be such a huge opportunity for firms. And something that I thought was really cool is I know you have talked about how LegalFlare is really set up more as a law firm than anything else. Tell me a little bit more about kind of the thought process behind that.

2:54Chris Rose: Yeah. So when I worked in sales and marketing, I worked for Steno for a few years. And they had this pretty cool payment option, deferred payments. It was basically depositions on contingency. And I looked at that and thought, you know, this is something that would make it very sticky and appealing for plaintiff's firms. You know, that way they're not having to put out the money initially and then wait to get paid back. And if things fall through, you know, they're not on the hook.

3:27Chris Rose: And so as I was coming up with this business idea, it occurred to me that, you know, I am a lawyer. LegalFlare is completely owned by me. So instead of like charging for these things, I just take a percentage of the fees, you know, for the legal services, the component that I provide. And then that way, if nothing ever comes of it, nobody owes anything and everybody gets paid out on the end. So I'm truly aligning my payment model with that of, you know, my clients, my partners.

3:59Will McCreight: Yeah. And I think that is such a cool system. Right. And that's something that I hear very regularly, you know, in general from attorneys when they're, you know, looking at like partnering up with like outside like vendors or just getting support in certain ways. Right. It's very common in certain spaces to have like long commitments. Right. Or ask for the money up front. Right. And then you kind of have to have that trust. The way that you guys have that set up is something that I would imagine people are very attracted to. Your background in general, though. Right. You mentioned, you know, having that experience in law. I would love for you to share a little bit more about your background because it's very interesting. And I would also love to hear a little bit about that poker piece. That's OK. Yeah.

4:44Chris Rose: OK. So I'm originally from Alabama. Not a lot to talk about there. I mean, you know, everything you've heard about Alabama is true. And so I moved out to Vegas on my 21st birthday. I asked my mom for 500 bucks for a one way ticket, moved to Vegas, sight unseen. And I've been in love ever since. When I first got out here, I became a casino dealer. I worked in the pits, blackjack, craps, roulette. Toward the end, baccarat, which is the dumbest game on the planet. And yeah. And so I did that for a while. I was a professional poker player for two years and that taught me, that taught me a lot. Not only about people, taught me a lot about myself.

5:34Chris Rose: And then when Black Flight Black Friday came through, I'm not sure if a lot of people know about that, but that was when the government clamped down on basically unregulated online poker. And so everybody's funds were frozen, mine included. So it was basically like they shut down my business. And then that's when I had to have, to have a come to Jesus moment and decide that, you know, maybe playing poker and video games and smoking weed all day wasn't the way to go. I should probably go out and become an adult. And so I went to school, got, you know, decided to, I was thinking about going into politics at the time. So going the lawyer route was the way to go. Became a lobbyist for three years and then moved into sales and marketing for a few years and then opened up my own law firm. And here I am.

6:27Will McCreight: You know, it's funny because as you talk through those things, when, you know, you said you gave him up to grow up. It's funny because I feel like in the conference world, right, it's not that far away at times.

6:40Chris Rose: I was going to say that that's probably part of the reason why I thrive.

6:45Will McCreight: You know, a little birdie told me that you're pretty great at poker. I will say I'm sure you can figure out who that birdie is.

6:54Chris Rose: I believe I can. If I had to guess, I'd say he's a cardinal, right?

6:59Will McCreight: Yeah. So John, for anybody who doesn't know, John is another member of our team, somebody that I've been good friends with for a while. And he had a similar experience as you where he, you know, did professional poker for a couple of years. And to your point, he has told me about some of the things that he has learned as well. And I think it's very fascinating, right, to be at a table with other people, to be friends with them, even though hopefully, right, you're kind of taking their money. You deal with lots of different individuals. You learn lots of different communication styles. Have you felt that translate kind of to your current role and like involvement in these cases when they're being referred?

7:38Chris Rose: Oh, so let's look. I mean, that kind of maybe mixes two things a little bit. So I'll separate this. On the case side, I've got my system. Like everything is intelligently routed. All of that is essentially automated, you know, built on, you know, solutions. And so I'm not looking at the cases unless there's something special that requires attention, decisions, things like that.

8:08Will McCreight: More marketing yourself, though, right?

8:10Chris Rose: Oh, yes.

8:11Will McCreight: Brand.

8:12Chris Rose: Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to, so we'll go to the other part. What did I learn playing poker? We'll start with what it means to like to compete with other people. I learned to be very, very sensitive to gestures, to people's actions. And, you know, people say there's, you know, everybody thinks there's like tells or something like that. You know how they rub their chips or where they look. And to some extent, I would say I probably lean on that if a decision is close, you know, so it's like 5% maybe.

8:56Chris Rose: But the real key is actions. You know, actions will tell you everything. Don't listen to what people are saying. Just consider what they're doing and then try to pull apart that logic. You know, what makes them do this? Why did they choose this action or inaction? And put yourself in that position. And I think that has really helped me to better understand other people and myself. You know, that way I can kind of step outside and think like, well, why the hell did I do that? You know, so that's a lot of it. And then, you know, if there's anything that truly underpins poker, it's that aggression and luck can masquerade as skill all day long.

9:45Will McCreight: You know, I also, I do think you're selling yourself short as far as just your ability to connect with people socially, which I, of course, want to stress. The other thing that John has told me in the past that has stuck with me actually is, you know, at the end of the day, it's about percentages. Right. And, you know, if you have a 55% chance in theory of being right, that's the decision you're supposed to make. Right. And, you know, the law of averages over time. Right. You have to expect that stuff to play out. And that's something that I've always found super interesting.

10:17Will McCreight: One thing that I noticed that you spoke about, you said that the founding thesis, essentially, every time a law firm declines a lead, they lose value. Right. And I think you actually put a number behind it, I believe, something close to like three percent or so. And the overall conversion rate of leads that other firms have already declined. Could you expand upon that a little bit and tell me if there's anything else that I'm missing regarding that?

10:45Chris Rose: No, you're exactly right. It all depends on the quality of the firm's intake, the quality of their marketing. And so we'll start at the start, you know, what's coming in. And depending on the marketing, are you targeting your audience well enough so that you're only getting the type of leads that you want? Because if a PI firm is getting like a lot of employment law leads, well, then it kind of begs the question, like, how good is your marketing, really? You know, which, I mean, that benefits me, of course. And, you know, anybody that calls is good. But for, you know, firms that are getting, you know, that don't want employment law cases, I think we're converting like maybe nine percent of those, which is phenomenal. Because every jackass who didn't get their birthday off wants to sue their boss. You know, so like it's, I compare it to sorting through the discount DVD bin at Walmart. You know, you're just like you got to get through Air Buds seven and three ninjas, you know, kick back again. But, you know, every now and then you find Big Trouble in Little China for like three bucks. And then like, boom, you know, that makes your day.

11:59Chris Rose: And then so the other part of it is your intake. Like how good is your intake? Because the leads that we're getting, they're turned down because intake decided that it wasn't for them or whatever. And on those, I think, you know, what we would classify as wanted cases, it's like 11 percent, you know.

12:21Will McCreight: Wow.

12:21Chris Rose: I mean, and that's across the board. You know, some firms are better than others. We just brought on a firm and they sent us, I don't know, probably 200 leads in the past like two weeks. We haven't signed one of those. Like their intake is on point. So I'm, I don't know. I'm going to like, I love it. You know, it's good information. But like those guys, somebody needs to take a day off over there.

12:49Will McCreight: When intake is such a fascinating thing, because truly that intake affects every ounce of the firm. Right. And somebody on the marketing side of things, for example, we have found that, you know, it's important to secret shop even like once a quarter. Right. While intake is not like a responsibility of ours, if the intake is not strong, we're not getting the best conversions that we could. But I'd love to hear more about your insights as far as things that you have found to be consistent with a good intake for, you know, potentially the example that you shared versus things that you have found to be missing when intake isn't super strong.

13:25Chris Rose: Yeah. And, you know, I'd love to, I'd love to get your input on this one as well. And so I think that the one, the, how can I put this? The one component, like the piece of it that I feel when I'm talking to firms is are they hungry? Like are, when we send them leads, are they like chasing down everything? Are they, you know, calling the person right away? Even if the case, the case details, the summary is like, oh, this looks like trash. Are they still calling the person and asking questions that might reveal something else? Or are they just declining right away or coming up with some bullshit, you know, excuse so that they don't have to do it? And our best performing firms are looking at those shit leads and they're thinking, oh, you know, maybe there's a question here I could get away with. So let me turn it back on you, Will. What do you see from the highest performing firms? Is there like some single, you know, like what is the one commonality?

14:31Will McCreight: You know, I will say one thing that comes to mind and it's similar to what you said, right? Like to me, what I find is that the firms that are most successful almost look at each contact as it's a lead until proven otherwise. Right. As opposed to the opposite. Right. There's always excuses, to your point, to say, OK, it's not a good one. Right. We're not chasing it down, et cetera. But to me, I think if there was one thing that I had to just boil it down to, it's that the firms with successful intake understand how essential it is. Once you understand how important that is to your overall growth, it's then something at least that I see typically is treated as such.

15:13Will McCreight: One thing that you talk about as well that I would agree with is that intake is sales. Right. The people that really treat intake like it should be, they tend to perform the best. And I know that one piece of that that has become more and more popular in recent years is like the non-attorney salesperson. Right. Or the non-illegal salesperson where it's OK, we're bringing on this person because they know how to sell. They know how to close and then we're bringing them in. And that's something I believe that you agree with as well. The idea that intake is sales.

15:42Chris Rose: A million percent. And the way I think of it is like when we go to websites, you know, people, they usually, they're going for confirmation. You know, they want the confidence to know that they're making a good decision. And so if someone's at a law firm website, they're not there usually thinking like, well, what does a personal injury firm do? They know they got into an accident and they know they need a lawyer. Like they are problem aware and they are motivated. So, you know, they're solution aware. They're asking, is this the right firm for me? They're looking for confirmation that they are making the right decision by calling this firm. And so if an intake picks up and is like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, this is the firm. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about yourself. You know, OK. Well, you know, and it's not, as opposed to someone's like, oh, that's terrible. I'm sorry. Like this, this is awful. I mean, you need representation right away. Like your insurance company is going to be calling you, you know, and you know, they're not on your side.

16:52Will McCreight: Yes.

16:54Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah.

16:56Will McCreight: Go ahead.

16:57Chris Rose: I was going to say, you know, that they're looking for someone to tell them you made the right decision by calling us. And that's what sales is. You know, it's confirming someone's decision.

17:11Will McCreight: Yeah. Speaking with that confidence. And, you know, I also view that intake begins before the phone is picked up, before that call is made. To your point, it's that first impression. It's when they land on your website. Are we providing that confidence that they've landed in the right spot, that you were the person for them? Because once they leave your site, we do not know if we'll get them back. Right. And that's something that's huge. The idea that sales or that intake is sales, I think, is something where sales in general can have a bit of a mystique around it. Right. Or, you know, people think of that used car salesman. But at the end of the day, it's the difference between allowing you to get a good lead or not. And in today's day and age with how much money is being invested into digital, you are doing yourself a disservice by not treating intake the same, which is something that we obviously both agree with.

18:05Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Intake is your front door. You know, first of all, if nobody's picking up the phone right away or nobody's calling back right away, your front door is closed. You know, you might as well have a close sign there. And then who is the person that you put up front? You know, like you want someone that's outgoing, you know, preferably someone that's easy on the eyes. You know, someone that's like going to engage people and make them think, oh, I walked into the right place and, you know, just like care about this a little bit. You know, it's not easy. You know, lawyers aren't always good business people or rarely business people. It's not.

18:40Will McCreight: And that's what makes part of the, that's what makes part of the intake challenge so special is because it is always evolving. You're always reevaluating. And if you have a star in that team and they go elsewhere, right, you are back to square one and you're trying to get yourself right back built up. It's why it's that, you know, component that's just so, so important. And I'm wondering, you know, one thing that I saw, actually, I'd like to ask you about this. Did I see that you hiked the Appalachian Trail?

19:14Chris Rose: I did. I did. Man, it fucking sucked.

19:18Will McCreight: Tell me more about that.

19:18Chris Rose: It was terrible. So I dropped out of school. I had been, I was at Georgia State for a semester and school just wasn't for me at that time. Like I was bored. It just, you know, every, all of my friends are like, you know, get meeting their, you know, soon to be wives. You know, they're talking about their careers. And I was like, man, I'm still like eight years old at heart. And you want me to go out and like be an adult? This isn't going to happen. And so I just, I mean, really, if I'm going to be entirely honest, I kind of had a breakdown. And it was an existential crisis. And I decided that I needed to get away from everything that was anchoring me to the past. Because all of these relationships you have with, you know, friends, family, they never see you for who you are right now. I mean, even if you saw someone yesterday, they are still seeing the yesterday you because something could have happened. People have a very hard time updating. And especially if you've had these relationships, I mean, family especially, they see you as the child that they knew. And so I said, I'm going to just get out away from everyone as far as I can and get to know myself.

20:45Chris Rose: And so I, you know, saved up a little bit of money and strapped on a backpack. I'd actually never been hiking before. I know. I know. I like, I do these things. I'm, you know, drunk on confidence 24 hours a day. And so I was 20 years old at the time. All right. Just turned 20. And I set out and like it was intoxicating. It was so much fun. And like the first month I was meeting all of these people and there was so much freedom and just learning all these new things about myself. And then after a month, like 75 percent of everyone out there just fell off. You know, they either got injured or they realize like, man, walking 20 miles a day with 40 pounds on your back up and down mountains all day sucks. And then so started getting really lonely. And then that's like, that's when like that isolation that I signed up for like hit me like a ton of bricks.

21:45Chris Rose: And I remember I was like three months in, like, well, three months into this and just like realizing I was only at the halfway point. And like I remember I like, I called my mom from this pay phone in like West Virginia or something. I was like just crying. And like this sucks so much. It's so bad. I hate it. It's hot. I've got heat rash. There are raccoons eating my food and mosquitoes. And my mom was like, you know, just give it another day. You know, you're just having a bad time. And it's like, all right. And, you know, I, it was like two days later. I had a pretty good day and that was enough for like another month, you know, and so I just kept going. And it was really, I mean, there were some beautiful things. And I learned so much about myself and I almost died like three times. Like saw a bear. Yeah. Yeah. Like I was confronted by a bear in the Smoky Mountains like 1 a.m. Because I always love, I love hiking at night. There's something, you know, except at this time it was...

22:44Will McCreight: It was your first hiking experience.

22:49Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, technically, yeah, my second hike ever was the Appalachian Trail. But yeah. And then like I almost froze to death one night. And one time I got, oh, I got Lyme disease while I was out there. I was dehydrated in New Hampshire. And so what I learned about myself was that if, like I, if I just, if I start something, I have a very hard time not finishing. Like that's just, that's who I am. No matter. Thanks.

23:27Will McCreight: Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

23:29Chris Rose: For everybody who's considering it, I will say don't do it. It sucks.

23:35Will McCreight: Well, I wanted to ask you about one quote specifically, because I read this quote and I will say that like this is perhaps one of like my favorite quotes that I can remember in recent time. You said it's hard to die. So take a few chances. And I think that is such a cool quote. And I would imagine. Right. Because this was around 2020. If I am reading that correctly. You know, how did that experience and even just the idea. Right. It's hard to die. It's take a few chances. You know, to your point earlier, you just start to start going. How did that, if at all, inspire you to start what you're doing right now at LegalFlare?

24:14Chris Rose: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, it's, I know that I'm always going to be fine and it doesn't apply to everybody, but like I've got far too many good things going for me. And even at my worst, I'm still going to be, you know, much better than most people. And then like actually getting out there in the woods and like seeing like it, I mean, I say like it's hard to die in terms of your body just keeps going. Like you just, you keep waking up. You keep waking up. Those times when I really thought I was in like serious trouble or something was about to happen, I still kept waking up, you know, and so that's kind of given me the, you know, the fool's confidence to believe that, you know, I'm going to live forever, but you got to take those chances.

25:09Chris Rose: And, you know, that definitely helped me start LegalFlare. That, going back to poker, what you said about if you've got a 55, 45 edge, you know, that 10%, you know, is yours. And I was thinking about it a couple of years ago. And, you know, if I look at myself and am I an above average capability person, I think so. Would I give myself at least a 55%, you know, favorable outcome, you know, expected outcome? I would say absolutely. And so if I really think about that and I'm willing to like put all of my, you know, go all in, like put my entire stack on a 55, 45, why wouldn't I do that with myself? If I really believe in myself that much, just like throw all the chips into the middle and just, you know, that, just believe, you know, that's what it comes down to. And if it, and if I failed, you know, if that 45% came up, then, you know, just, you know, go back to the cage, get some more chips.

26:19Will McCreight: Yeah. You know, and I would argue that, you know, another thing that you're selling yourself short on, right. Let's say you even had a 25% chance. You put your chips in the middle, you play the hand and the other person across from you folds. Right. Sometimes it's just making that action. It's just putting those chips in. That can be the biggest difference there. Something that I think is very cool. Another thing that you do great is for anybody who's met you or knows you, they know that you are quite the personality, like at conferences, you're a real presence, right? You're a friendly person, very outgoing. And you are somebody who makes a point to go out to meet people, to shake hands, to do all that stuff. How have you, if any, felt that in the business side of things, right? Because that for me, when it comes to, you know, things that you can do that an attorney can do to compete, right. Before they have the resources to compete with a mega firm, for example, right. It's go to conferences, it's meet people, it's build these relationships. How have you seen that to benefit you or also maybe others?

27:23Chris Rose: Yeah. I'm very fortunate, definitely being a casino dealer, you know, for 15 years, that helped me to, I mean, when somebody would sit at my table, like I'm captive, you know, and I'm working on tips. I'm trying to get this person to tip me when my job is to take their money. So I had to learn to engage people, to figure out like, what do they want to talk about? And so I'm really good at just peppering questions and figuring out like, do they want to talk about this? Do they want to talk about that? You know, and just kind of like finding, finding the topic. And then, so I've leveraged that into my personal brand because people want to be around other people who are charismatic, who are charming, who make them feel important. And that's what I love doing. I love just being around people and getting to know them. And if it's someone I genuinely am interested in, which is like 90% of all people, it's not hard for me to make them feel important because in that moment, they really are important to me. I want to know all about them.

28:34Chris Rose: John, our mutual acquaintance, John was, I should say mutual close friend, said one of the, one of the, one of the favorite things I've ever said to him was, if you want to be interesting, be interested, because, you know, everybody's favorite word is their own name. Like that's a fact. I mean, Chris fucking Rose, like I'll, you know, if I only had three words I could say. And so by talking to these people, like they want to be around other people who, you know, make them feel good. And if we can get a good working relationship out of that, or if they have some opportunity that comes up, I want to be the first person that they think of at the forefront of their mind, you know, and that's, it's really branding, you know, it's like when I go to the store to buy toilet paper, I always think of Charmin, you know, whether it's the best or not, just because those old commercials, you know, please don't squeeze the Charmin. It was just, you know, it embedded itself. And so that's, you know, branding is the emotions that we attach to, you know, a personality.

29:43Will McCreight: And I think that you also do a great job of branding in an authentic way, right? Like when I think Chris fucking Rose, right? 90%, 99% of the people, if they tried to pull that stunt where you were, you know, you write it on your name badge, like all that stuff, right? It wouldn't fit, but for you, it's authentic. It's your personality, right? And it's because of that, something that sticks.

30:05Chris Rose: Let me, may I turn this back around on you?

30:07Will McCreight: Please.

30:08Chris Rose: As someone that I really appreciate and, you know, I really enjoy being around you and I see you as being someone who doesn't have, you know, a veneer, you know, is, I feel like every time I'm talking to you, I'm talking to Will. And you know, that's not true for everybody. They're, you know, they're a conference people, you know? And so let me ask you this. I mean, people do ask me about that. And that's, you know, Chris fucking Rose, because my personality is a little bit more aggressive. I think, you know, it's like I was saying earlier, aggression and luck, you know, it's confused for skill. But let me ask you, do you ever feel the need to like, try to be more professional than you are, try to placate someone or try to be, you know, to fit some expectation, especially when we're surrounded by, you know, lawyers?

30:59Will McCreight: Yes and no. When I think back to when I first started coming to conferences, even today, you know, when I first started going, I think when I went to my first conference, it, I might have been 23, 24 years old. And going to that conference, you're surrounded by, you know, very successful attorneys who are, you know, well into their career. They're much older than you, right? I, as somebody who is not an attorney, you already don't fit in, right? But then you're also a vendor. And I think that the authenticity behind it of just going up to people like talking, right. Talking to them, like they're normal people, not approaching it with this agenda of like, hey, I'm trying to sell you SEO or, you know, whatever the case may be. I think it helps create those conversations, but I would be lying if I said that there wasn't an intentional effort to at least appear professional compared to what I had perceived other people my age, you know, doing and almost ways that people would act in that space.

32:03Will McCreight: I think reputation, something that's extremely important. And when you are on the road at conferences, right, whether you are, you know, sitting down with your laptop or you're going to pick up something from the hotel, like lobby area, you are essentially right. Your brand, your reputation is out there. And I do think it was something that I was very, very cognizant of early on because I knew it was important to have a perception, right. And, you know, control anything that I could to build the reputation I wanted early on. And it's something I don't feel I need to think about as much now, but it is, it's always top of mind because at the end of the day, right. I am not an attorney when we're at these things. And so it's important that you have that authenticity. So I think yes and no.

32:52Chris Rose: Yeah. You know, people, whether they're aware of, aware of it or not, can pick up on authenticity. You know, if someone is actually being themselves or if they've got their conference face on, and I, you know, I'm fine with it either way. You know, if someone feels like they have to be someone else at the conference, I'm always in favor of like dropping that. And I try to go like straight into it when I meet someone, I'm like, hey, I'm Chris fucking Rose. Nice to meet you. Tell me about your childhood trauma, you know, because like that, it forms a connection right away. But I also, I guess I just got tired of trying to be something I wasn't. Yeah.

33:35Chris Rose: And you know, and so it just occurred to me that like, if someone doesn't like me for who I am, why would I want to impress them? Why would I want to work with them? Why would I want to be around them? You know? And so, you know, some people just don't have that confidence. Or, you know, maybe they're genuinely terrible people, in which place, in which case, you know, please, like keep faking it. But, you know, but the other part is like, I just got, I just got tired of trying to live by those other standards because when I first came onto the scene, you know, and, oh man, if you'd see me in law school, like I wore like a button up and a tie every day. And I really felt like I was trying to like set this image and I was just, it's like carrying around a load of weight all day long, you know? And then when I just got tired and, you know, frustrated, I said, fuck it. I'm wearing, you know, my jeans and Metallica shirt to school today. And I just felt more comfortable and like people responded and I realized I was quicker and I was wittier and I was really, I was, nimble is what it is. And that's, that was when I really began to think, hey, you know, maybe trying to, you know, hold up this standard that isn't me is actually holding me down.

35:02Will McCreight: And so, and I think it's that authenticity piece, but also making the effort to go find the people that you do connect with. Right. Which is easier said than done, but at conferences, right. And just building those connections in general, it's going up to people. It's right. It's saying hello. It's being authentic. One of the quotes that I saw from you that I also thought was pretty cool. And I think it's a great analogy for just everything we're talking about here in general, is that like, one of the things that you think when you get off of a podcast or like have a conversation with somebody is like, would I grab a beer with this person? And I think in business, I think in connections and really in that conference world, right. If the answer to that is no, you're not really going to find these connections in the first place. Right. And so it all starts by being authentic, right. By like connecting with people. And then, you know, you're in a room and then when you're in a room, things happen.

35:56Chris Rose: Yeah. Put yourself in position to get lucky. And you're right. And really Chris fucking Rose, that is part of my sorting mechanism. You know, people think it's me just, you know, being maybe childish or just authentic or whatever. But part of it is when I tell someone my name, when I say Chris fucking Rose, I'm looking right into their eyes. I'm using those skills that I learned and I judge their demeanor. You know, is there a shift? Is there a, you know, an instance, a micro expression of discomfort? And if so, I know that like, I'm, you know, no offense to them, but I'm probably just not going to, you know, jive with them. Well, you know, we're not going to vibe together. And I know like, okay, it's nice to meet you. I'm not going to try to make you on any more uncomfortable. And so I know that they're just not someone that I would probably work with or hang out with.

36:53Chris Rose: And so in that way, you know, you're in sales, right? What is the second best answer in sales? You know, when it's no, it's no, exactly. Yes or no. The worst is maybe, or, you know, I'll think about it. And so when I say Chris fucking Rose, I'm looking at people and I'm asking, hey, this is what I'm selling. You know, myself, are you buying, yes or no? And usually people let me know right away.

37:25Will McCreight: Yeah. And, you know, at the momentum, all that stuff, and it's something you do well. And it's interesting to hear some of the tactic behind that, right. And some of the intention about those things. Really cool. I also saw on your LinkedIn bio, and this is something maybe I need to steal. I saw you had the height listed in there. Maybe that's, I think, honestly, when I think about that, I think I need to get something more interesting about myself because I think that my height is my brand to an extent. And I can do better than that. So last thing I'll say, I would love, because as somebody who's seen, you know, who's experienced every different side of a firm's experience that you possibly could, I would love to hear what you think the one to two lowest hanging fruit opportunities are that you typically see or ignored at any point in the experience.

38:20Chris Rose: From the law firm perspective, like increasing revenue, something like that.

38:24Will McCreight: If you're, if I'm an attorney, right, if I'm a lawyer and I go, what are the two lowest hanging fruit opportunities to grow my firm, to, you know, increase revenue that I might not be thinking about, or I might not commonly hear? Anything that comes to mind for you?

38:40Chris Rose: Lowest, I would say, oh man. Oh, this is a good question. Well, okay. Lowest hanging fruit. First one is, you know, if audit or just like speak to your intake people, you know, that's the first thing. Like, what is it? Secret shop your intake, like, that's it. Like pick up the phone, pretend you're hurt, call your intake. I guarantee what you learn on that phone call will teach you volumes. And that's the easiest one, lowest hanging fruit. It will either be validation and confirmation, or it will be a wake up call, you know, one phone call. That's all it is.

39:24Chris Rose: The number two, I would say is systems. Like that's the, just think of everything in systems. Just what are you doing? What are you doing over and over? Is it written down? If you stepped out of the office for a week, is everything going to continue going down the same path or are people just going to be vibing, you know? Cause in LegalFlare, I hate, I hate vibes, you know, as someone who vibes all the time, you know, I come up with a great vibe. Thank you. Yeah, no. And I thrive in chaos. Like that's one of the reasons why I do so well in conferences is because like I, you know, the chaotic good, I love to get in there and just use my abilities, but when it comes down to it, systems, like numbers, measure everything. If any of your decisions are based on feelings and, you know, probably most of them are, I very much subscribe to behavioral economics that we make, we believe we make logical decisions, but we actually make emotional decisions and justify them logically. And so don't let that happen. No vibes, no vibes. Everything needs to be justified by a number, break everything down, quantify everything. Maybe that's not so simple, but I think the simplest thing is like beginning to move, like thinking those.

40:52Chris Rose: So, and can I ask you the same thing? Like, what would you say?

40:55Will McCreight: Okay.

40:55Chris Rose: I mean, cause you probably have, you know, more experience on the marketing side than I do.

41:00Will McCreight: When it comes to marketing or when it comes to the firm in general?

41:00Chris Rose: I will let you decide.

41:06Will McCreight: Okay. I will, here's what I will say. When I go up on stage, something I say every single time is, and I, it's one of the most common misconceptions that I hear is a lot of people view, for example, digital marketing is as something that is so cloudy. It's so difficult to understand. And it's so impossible to even just assess that they don't get started at all. And what I found is that one, that firms can do a lot more and accomplish far greater success through their own efforts than they give themselves credit for, or that they attempt to do. They just don't know where to start. And I think I see the inaction in general to be one of the things that hold people back the most. It's sometimes over analyzing, right? If they don't have data to work with, the only way to get data is to try it, test it, track it. And then we can understand if it's worth continuing. And if it produces the return that you're looking for. So that's one of the biggest ones that I think people leave on the table.

42:13Will McCreight: And the others are the basics, right? It's okay. I know that certain things like intake, I know a CRM is important, but I'm not really going to treat it that way. It's one thing to have a box checked. It's another thing to really incorporate that. And I think that what I've learned is that the people who are most successful on the firm side of things, they treat every small detail like it's the most important detail in the firm. And they're not afraid to try something in order to get an answer as far as whether or not it's worth continuing.

42:42Chris Rose: Oh, that's a good. Do you know your Kolbe index?

42:47Will McCreight: No, I don't. I don't. But I was just talking with Erica at Filmai and I need it. I told her I need it.

42:53Chris Rose: She did mine. Yeah. She did hours at LegalFlare. And so I know mine. I'm a quick start. And so I don't need a lot. I'll go. I'll go. I run headlong into danger. I mean, as you can probably tell.

43:09Will McCreight: It takes a lot to kill you.

43:10Chris Rose: It does. And so I want to just give one more quick, actionable, low-hanging fruit since you said the marketing. Pay 20 bucks for a Claude subscription and then download Claude in your Chrome browser. Open up the tab. Go to your own website and tell Claude, come up with a criteria for optimized SEO and then run it against my website and tell me what you find. Because I paid $20,000 for my website. And then when I popped it open, I got a 20 on the Lighthouse score. And Claude was just like, what is going on here? Like, you've got a rat nest. You know, it's like opening up the hood of a car and finding like squirrels under there. And so I spent a week just pulling all that out. And now my Lighthouse score is 99, which is boom.

44:04Will McCreight: That's incredible.

44:05Chris Rose: And it's getting better all the time. But for 20 bucks, go see what your website says. If you have a website.

44:11Will McCreight: I know that you're fantastic with that stuff, which we could probably talk for hours about. One thing I will say there, because it's timely. I just got off a call with somebody yesterday who essentially took that approach. They did something to their Google business profile where Claude or ChatGPT was like, hey, go and make this change. And they're like, they are at risk of getting suspended with the, getting their business profile suspended as a result of it. So I'll put a fact check it in general. The human once over. But I agree, right? There's information out there. And people can accomplish a lot more than they think they're able to by just being curious, by exploring, and by putting a couple minutes into it to figure it out. Right? And I think that's no doubt a quality of yours that has contributed to your success and all of these cool things that you've done throughout the year that have led us to recording a podcast together. I guess tell everybody where they can find you. How can they connect with you? Where can they learn more about LegalFlare? What conferences will they see you at coming up?

45:14Chris Rose: Yeah. Of course, you know, Chris.Rose at LegalFlare.com. Anybody's welcome to shoot me an email. I try to go to a lot of conferences, but I've been building a lot lately. And, you know, it's the nature of contingent fee work that it takes a little while for these cases to start paying off. And so I've had to dial back on conferences. But I think the next one I'm going to is, or I know I'm going to, is Lawyer Growth Summit. That'll be a fantastic one. Maybe AAJ in Chicago. AAJ is such a pain in the ass. I appreciate everything they do, but as an organization, it's just like, give us more money. But I do love Chicago. And then, you know, basically, anytime Mike Morse throws a Fireproof event, I try to go to those as well. They're all great.

46:01Will McCreight: You find yourself with the fun ones and living in Vegas, right? I'm sure there's a 50% chance anything out in Vegas will run into you. And, Chris, I really appreciate you coming on. Like I said, think very highly of you, all the stuff that you've done. And I know that everybody out there and the folks listening have a lot to learn from you and not just your experiences, but what you've seen firsthand as well.

46:23Chris Rose: Yeah, thanks, Will. And I really meant it. Like, this is a moment for me. I had really, you know, looked up to you and thought that was so cool that you had a podcast, you know, long before I met you. And so when you reached out to ask me to be on this, it was like, you know, it's such validation. So I really appreciate you.

46:43Will McCreight: You know what? Another white guy with the podcast is what everybody's been asking for. I was happy to add myself into the mix there. And I know for sure that you will have much better and more significant accomplishments in the future and historically as well than joining my podcast. But I'll be bragging about you being on it.

47:06Chris Rose: I'm sure.

47:07Will McCreight: Already am. So appreciate it, Chris.

47:08Chris Rose: Same.

47:09Will McCreight: Yeah, pleased.