Building A Modern Law Practice: Referrals, Revenue, And Startup Smarts With Chris Rose

0:00Laura Moore: Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in today. Welcome to Time for Moore Injury Funding, the podcast for all who want to learn about legal funding and its significance in the personal injury, workers' compensation, immigration, medical malpractice, and many other types of law practice domains. I'm your host, Laura, founder and CEO of Moore Injury Funding, the legal funding counselors with passion for law, medicine, legal funding, and heart for all suffering individuals.

0:25Laura Moore: In today's episode, we are honored to have Attorney Chris Rose, founder of LegalFlare.com. That's a service which connects lawyers with potential clients or with other lawyers for case referrals. It focuses on finding law firms that can handle cases that a lawyer may not be able to take on themselves, either due to the case type, jurisdiction, or workload. Today, we'll discuss LegalFlare's origin and referral network, revenue optimization, marketing, return on investment, or ROI, networking strategies, startup-focused legal insights with a cat segment, and Chris Rose's perspective on the future of legal services. At the end of our episode, I've prepared fun pop-up questions for our guests, so stay tuned until the very end.

1:15Laura Moore: Chris, thanks for joining us today.

1:17Chris Rose: Hi. Yeah, thanks for having me. I feel like I've been waiting forever to be on your podcast.

1:21Laura Moore: Same here, same here. Yeah, we have some nationwide connections, some attorneys that we all know, and so it's so good to have you finally with us today. So let's start our conversation with your journey on becoming an attorney. What made you decide to become one?

1:37Chris Rose: I don't know. You know, I hadn't really thought initially about becoming an attorney. I was a casino dealer here in Las Vegas. Right around my 30s, it occurred to me that I should probably become an adult at some point. For most of my life, I've just been two kids stacked up in a trench coat, so it was time for me to go to school. I thought maybe computer science, computer engineering might be something that would be good for me, but when I took my first poli sci class, that's when it just really clicked with me. This whole idea of the law and how it structures society. And my poli sci instructor said that if I really wanted to move into that space, I should consider going to law school, becoming an attorney.

2:22Chris Rose: So I went to law school. I wanted to go into politics. I was a lobbyist for a while. That was not as much fun as we are all led to believe. I had to find that out to heartily. And then went into sales and marketing, where I learned to really hone my skills, my charm and charisma and influence and persuasion. And built out my network through that and then decided it was time I should go back into practice of some type with a Chris Rose spin on it. And so that's kind of how I've gotten here.

2:58Laura Moore: Yeah, that's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing with us. It's definitely a different, unique way of starting your law career there. How long ago did you found LegalFlare and what was the main purpose for it?

3:12Chris Rose: Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. I'll just get real with you. So I founded LegalFlare. What is this? So almost a year and a half ago. And my whole idea was that I don't want to work the cases. I don't want to sit behind a desk. That's not what I do. That's not my zone of genius. And as I looked around, I realized that I have this incredible network of attorneys. And I can still practice law by using my expertise and my network if I focus on referrals.

3:40Chris Rose: So my first idea was to generate cases. Someone needs an attorney. They can come to me and say, you know, this is the type of attorney I want for this type of case. And then I would utilize my expertise and say, oh, you know, talk to these people. And then I would do case origination. But then I'm still trying to originate cases against everyone else who's marketing in the space. You know, how do I compete with someone who's spending a million dollars a month simply by saying I know them a little bit better? And so it was very difficult. And then that's when I pivoted from B2C to B2B and began marketing to law firms to help them move referrals in between each other. And that's when I found out that there's this undeveloped space there. And that's kind of how the iteration and the current version of LegalFlare.

4:34Laura Moore: That's great. That sounds like a natural progression to where you started to where you wanted to go. And you're still on that path. That's wonderful. Referrals, as we all know, are the lifeblood for many law practices. What is your framework, Chris, for building a sustainable, compliant referral ecosystem? And how has LegalFlare leveraged technology to scale qualifying referrals?

5:00Chris Rose: Okay. Oh, this is a good question. Yeah, you're throwing them at me. So I really figured this all out just by doing it. Anytime someone said, got a case I need to move or, you know, moving in between jurisdictions, practice areas. And so I would always say, yeah, I can do that. I know someone. I'll figure it out for you. And then as I began to move into it, I realized, oh, okay, you know, there are all these rules of professional conduct that, you know, vary from state to state depending on, you know, where it is or even case type. Caps on fees. If there's a requirement of either proportionality or assumption of responsibility. And so I just, I learned by doing it and researching, researching. Oh, I've researched all 50 states.

5:45Chris Rose: And by doing all of this and speaking to other attorneys, when I would say, okay, here's a referral. This is what I need from you to be compliant. A lot of attorneys would say, well, just shake hands. It'll be fine. You know, I promise to pay you. And I realized this is a very undeveloped and noncompliant space. And so just by going through and like saying, this is the standard, this is what we must do. So that's the compliance and, you know, really building trust and seeing who's most amenable to doing that.

6:14Chris Rose: The technology, that's, it's moved so quickly. And now I've gone from compliance and administration to infrastructure and how to quickly move those referrals. And now I take decline leads and turn them into signed cases. Every time a firm that works with me declines a lead, goes right into my system. I move it into my network of referral partners, my attorneys, and then they review all of those leads. And we try to sign any viable cases. And that's really made possible by, you know, technology and software and routing lead management software. And so without that, I mean, it would still be like emails and phone calls and just be incredibly inefficient. We know in the lead space, speed to lead that matters.

7:00Laura Moore: So I assume everything is done automatically just within the infrastructure of your software or your system, correct? You don't actually manually click and move, right?

7:11Chris Rose: I, we try not to. Every now and then there are cases, there are leads that are flagged for whatever reason that requires special attention. But for the most part, we've got it all set out so that I can, you know, move those leads to where they need to go to. And then the attorneys in my network, they're the ones that actually review the cases. So for me, it's a lot of lead allocation.

7:33Laura Moore: Makes sense. How do you, Chris, assess the quality and fit of a referral before taking a case? What practical criteria or maybe indicators do you look for? You know, what I can think off top of my head, jurisdiction, maybe a practice area niche, client compatibility, anything else?

7:55Chris Rose: Yeah. So those are definitely the top three and those are the ones that control almost always, in which jurisdiction, you know, which state, practice area, employment law, personal injury, work comp or work injury in Texas. And then next would be, yeah, there is, you know, some case value. Some law firms that I work with, you know, only want the larger value cases. And those are the ones that have a proven track record, are accountable. They are great to work with. And then there are the firms that maybe we're just bringing on. And so we will send some of the, what we, you know, just from a glance can consider a lower value. And that's how they build up their trust. And then, you know, for the top tiers, I mean, most of that's fairly automatic. Everything that comes through, we don't really like dive into that too much, but if say it's like a MedMal case or a commercial policy trucking accident, those we flag right away and send those to the highest firms, the most reliable firms with a proven track record. But for the most part, it's all fairly automated.

9:01Laura Moore: That's good. What are common referral pitfalls lawyers should avoid? What would be your recommendation? Maybe some conflicts, over reliance on one channel. I don't know, misaligned expectations. And how can systems and processes mitigate them?

9:19Chris Rose: Okay. All right. Laura, you're going to make me pull out my soapbox here. Like this is one of the things that I am like constantly railing against, pitfalls. Anytime someone says, oh no, you can trust me. You know, I operate on a handshake. Don't operate on a handshake. Anytime someone says, oh yeah, send it to me. And next time I get a case, I'll send that one back to you. Don't do that. Don't, you know, goodwill does not feed my cats. Get everything in writing, get all those agreements out, put it in writing. And for the most part, that's the only way to conform to the rules of professional conduct. I see it all the time where firms just like operate on handshakes. Those are some of the biggest ways to go south, and ask around with other attorneys. Most of them have been burned at some point because they didn't put it in writing. They trusted someone. And that's really what's created this need that I, that firms have for me.

10:18Chris Rose: When it comes to software efficiency, things like that, there's all types of LMS services, you know, that can create integrations. I mean, even, you know, simply email, like as outdated as that has become for leads, it still moves everything very quickly. But the real key is creating automation so that when a firm, you know, for me, that when they decline a lead, as soon as they hit decline, it just gets routed right into my system and moved to someone else that can review that. And that way, that person who maybe has a case and that firm declined it, they're always, always, always, always going to pick up a phone and call someone else. They're trying to find someone. And if we aren't that firm, if we aren't that, you know, that service that is connecting them and having someone else call them, you know, with consent, of course, we always get consent to reach out to them and say, hey, you know, actually the last firm maybe didn't consider this or couldn't handle that. And then that's how we are able to, you know, create that layer of review and sign declined leads into viable cases.

11:21Laura Moore: For first, playing it so thoroughly, I'm sure, you know, that's very, very important for your current and future clients to know. Can you, Chris, share a successful, maybe referral strategy that you implemented for startups or tech clients? What metrics did you track and how did you optimize them over time?

11:43Chris Rose: Yeah. I mean, I'll say the first and best strategy is call me. But, you know, and maybe there's some self-interest there. So really I can only say what's worked best for me and what I have implemented. Maybe there are better strategies out there, but I haven't seen them yet. Always, always, always create a relationship. You should know who you're referring these to. And I know there are a lot of other services out there that are like marketplaces or they're just saying, you know, send your lead to us or put it on our, you know, eBay style marketplace and have other people bid on it. So we've tried that, you know, I've looked into that. And one of the problems is these firms aren't as accountable. There's not as much quality in that.

12:30Chris Rose: So having those relationships for me, anytime I'm going to send my leads or cases to someone, I have an onboard, an introduction. I want to know who they are. You know, tell me about yourself. Do we vibe? Do we work well? Am I getting a good feeling from them? Cause sometimes I don't. And then after that, right. And then after that we have an introductory call. It's like, look, I like you. I think we can work well together, but here are my expectations. So when I send you a lead, I track how long it takes for you to accept that lead. Like, hey, I'm reviewing this. You know, then if they're reaching out, I want to know, like, give me updates. If they decline it, I want to know why did you decline it? You know, give me a reason that helps improve my system. And also it's an accountability. Like, what are you actually looking at this?

13:15Chris Rose: I've had firms where we put the, as a test, we put our office number. Our client contact number. And then the firm would say, oh, you know, we couldn't get in touch with the contact. So we had to decline it. Like we would know you never called us. And so we fired those firms. That actually happened multiple times. So you have to know these people. And then we also do a status updates as well. So every month for every case they sign, we want to know exactly what's going on with this case. So nobody blows a filing deadline. And then we have accountability meetings once a month with our firms to say, okay, these are your numbers. These are your metrics. Here are your conversion rates. Here's your time to response. Like, so it shows like we're tracking and helping them get better and improve our system as well. So those would be the biggest ones. I would say it's really the details, the hard work, you know, like it's safe, but like treat your attorneys like children and they will, you know, become adults.

14:15Laura Moore: I love the way you put it. I totally agree with you. How do you maintain ethical standards and protect client confidentiality when coordinating referrals across multiple firms, platforms, states?

14:29Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good question. Especially now as, you know, security breaches are becoming more and more sophisticated. The first thing we do first and foremost is, you know, when a firm declines a lead that is in our system, we tell them get consent. They have to get consent for us or someone from our network to reach out to them and talk to them. So that's the first thing to conform with non-solicitation rules. And on top of that, it's, you know, getting that consent to send their information to someone else to review. That way we're not just putting it out there. The other part is we don't send anything that could really be used to identify them and, you know, make, you know, open up a credit card or, you know, something like that. So we don't take, you know, social security numbers and any real information.

15:17Chris Rose: And the other part is our system is, you know, everything is transferred through, I don't know all the terms like HIPAA compliance, SOC 2. All I know is I paid a ton of money to make sure that it's more safe than that. I'm not a tech guy. All I know is when they pull a chunk of change out of my budget, you know, the difference between the compliance and non-compliance standards, like that's really when I feel it. But yeah, all of it is sent through our systems so that the information that we send can only be looked at through the system. And then once they decide, once the attorney who's reviewing it says, yeah, I want to assign this, then they reach out and bring them into their system. And so that way, you know, nothing is just being sent out, you know, willy nilly into the ether, you know, to be gobbled up by someone else.

16:09Laura Moore: So yeah, it sounds like it's both ways encrypted. So that's awesome. Now we're going to shift our focus to revenue optimization. What are the most underutilized levers for increasing law firm revenue beyond billable hours?

16:27Chris Rose: Oh, well, billable hours. I hate that trauma. So if we're talking about increasing revenue, it should always, the first place they should look is not, I mean, you can look at marketing and that's the easiest. And that's what a lot of firms do. They're like, oh, bring in more cases. We want more revenue. You know, how can we, you know, have more money coming in? It's a very short sighted, very myopic way of looking at revenue. If they're trying to bring revenue in, you should really focus on like what's there and retaining a lot of that value as well, because the law firm is just one big leaky pipe. You know, you've got these, this revenue coming in and every time, you know, you're not optimizing for efficiency. Every time you're taking too long to convert, every time you're taking too long to call or leave. Every time your cases aren't settling quickly or dispersing quickly, like that's revenue that you have, the potential revenue, and they're actually losing it.

17:31Chris Rose: So I never look at it in terms of increasing revenue. I think of it in terms of optimizing revenue retention. And that's really where I've built my space. And so every time a lead calls into a firm, how quickly, you know, are, is the intake, you know, being polite, being professional, or if a firm or if a form is filled out, like how quickly are they calling them back? There's always that potential revenue. Every time they make a mistake, they're losing revenue. That's really what it is. They, that it's there for them. And so I focus on retention and every time they press the climb on a lead, no law firm's intake is perfect, no matter how much. And so over the aggregate, they're still losing money. And I focus on retaining that money or fixing the leaky pipes. And so I would say, always look at all the money that's already coming in and focus on how you can keep that in your system because that's already yours. If it's leaking out, that's on you. And that's what you have the most control over.

18:36Laura Moore: So Chris, in terms of client lifetime value, what steps can firms take to increase repeat work and cross sell services without sacrificing trust or quality?

18:48Chris Rose: Oh, this is the easiest. And it goes to the same thing without sacrificing. No, lean into trust, lean into quality. One of my largest firms, they receive a lot of leads from other practice areas. They actually are a very large criminal defense firm, but because they've done such a good job representing these clients when now, when they get hurt or when they get fired, when something happens, they call them and say, hey, you know, this is what happened. Like, are you able to help me out? And they say, actually, we are able to help you out. We won't be the ones representing you, but we can still get you quality representation. Is it okay if one of our partners reaches out to you? And so even though they're not doing it, like we talk about, you know, cross selling, all they're doing is providing a good service.

19:41Chris Rose: And so that comes from, you know, one, you know, showing empathy, you know, representing a client is not about the outcome. Like we focus on the outcome, case values, but that's a client there for them. That's a person who is focused on the experience start to finish. Do you call them? Do you update them? I always talk about this one study in London or in the subway system where they wanted to increase, you know, how much satisfaction there was with the underground. And so they took polls and they said, well, what if we decreased the time in between the, you know, the trains and they found it didn't have much effect. What had the biggest effect was actually just putting a, you know, a digital display up above that said time till next train. And so that way there wasn't that uncertainty. And all of a sudden everybody's like happy. You're like, oh, it's only going to be five minutes away as opposed to that unknown. And so if law firms really want like lifetime value, cross selling, you know, getting clients to come back, even for practice areas that aren't in their wheelhouse, but being able to refer those out and take a fee split. Like it's all about focusing on the client experience. Like if this were you, how would you want to be treated, like a person, not just a case. That's the only way to do it really.

21:03Laura Moore: Totally agree. That totally makes sense. How do you, Chris, measure the ROI of marketing and technology investments in a law firm? Can you share a framework for prioritizing initiatives under budget constraints? If there are budget constraints.

21:17Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm a startup. Like this is, I can tell you about budget constraints and ROI. So specific numbers are difficult, especially since I've only really been, you know, in, you know, the B2B referral space for about eight months and even, you know, leads, decline leads for four months. I would say one of the biggest things is growth. Like what are your growth, what is your growth trajectory? We look at that in two ways. One is, you know, decline leads that are sent to us. And we're seeing right now, oh, I mean like 20 to 25% month over month growth, you know, and science cases mirror that, but like, what are the leads overall in growth that we're getting? And then what are the sign cases as an overall percentage beyond that? And then we try to loosely estimate the value on those cases. And then lately, you know, I've been looking at the amount that we spend versus the amount that we believe those cases are worth. And they're tracking relatively evenly right now. That's a very simplistic view. I'm not an accountant or a mathematician or anything. So I've just been trying to loosely correlate those two. I would say if, you know, if we speak again in a year or two, like, I'd love to come back and say like, this is exactly what I did.

22:44Laura Moore: Yeah. Now I'm already looking forward to it.

22:47Chris Rose: And so then I would have a better idea as to like how to closely correlate those financials. I would say the other part is like, I'm going to Fireproof conference in September. I'm just going to like follow Mike Morse around and pick up all those pearls of wisdom, you know, he's going to throw at me.

23:04Laura Moore: So we'll talk about some conferences in just a moment, but let's talk about networking actually, you know, related to that for a moment. What practical networking playbooks have you found most, let me say playbooks, you know, whatever your script is or whatever your ideas to be most effective for attorneys in the modern digital first landscape? How do you convert online connections into meaningful and ongoing relationships? Because as you said, everything's about relationships.

23:33Chris Rose: You're exactly right. That's a really good question because most attorneys are terrible at relationships, at being human. And so I would say first and foremost, How to Win Friends and Influence People. That helps me more than anything. I love that book, like treat people as people. And really to take the most out of that book is if you want to be interesting, be interested. Just like that. Ask questions. This isn't about me. It's not about, you know, vomiting up my life story over people. It's like, hey, what? Be interested. You know, where do you, what do you do? What are you working on? You know, tell me more about that. Oh, I love that. You know, be excited. Like be excited about people. Learn about that.

24:15Chris Rose: Next, Influence has been great. Robert Cialdini. And a lot of that is just like how you relate to people, but how you present yourself in a way that makes people, you know, want to do the things that you want to do. And so, you know, social proof. I don't know, like going on, you know, notable podcasts, you know, to establish authority, things like that. And in terms of just networking and building all of that out, just be authentic. The first line on my LinkedIn is authentic AF. I don't know if I can swear here, but I want people to know who I am.

24:54Laura Moore: You're more than welcome.

24:55Chris Rose: Oh, perfect. Authentic is fun. Like that's who I am on LinkedIn. You know, when I go to conferences, I'm Chris fucking Rose. And that's because I'm going to swear at you. I'm going to push the boundaries a little bit. But I want you to know that when you interact with me, this is who you're always going to get. And sometimes, you know, it's a little bit edgy. I can be a little bit volatile, but because I'm energetic and the way to build trust is by setting expectations and following through. And that's what I always do.

25:26Laura Moore: How can solo practitioners or small firms build a credible network with larger firms, potential clients and strategic partners while preserving autonomy? This is probably one of the hardest things to do. And any small firm owner would ask that question. Like yesterday, I had that asked many, many times, you know, many times when we mentioned referrals, I was like, yes, please connect me with so-and-so. Anybody, you know, connect me with them. So what's your view on that?

25:56Chris Rose: Yeah, that's a great. You're throwing the best ones at me again. Established expectations up front. You know, this is how I operate. This is what I'm going to do. Clear boundaries, regularly enforced, consistently enforced. And so as long as you're saying I will do this and then you meet that there over and over and over, people will trust you. If you say, you know, this is my line, like you can't go, you know, beyond my boundaries and force that consistently, people will trust you. People will know how to operate you if you're just like the term, but like wishy-washy or, you know, not confident enough to meet those expectations and establish your own boundaries. And people are going to walk all over you. They're not going to trust you like that. You know, and so I would say, you know, yourself, you know, your boundaries, you know, your expectations and be right there the entire time. Everything else just flows from that.

26:55Laura Moore: You know, we said we're going to come back to the networking and the referrals or the spaces where referrals are made for attorneys. Are there any specific events, communities, platforms you found that yield high quality referrals? How do you evaluate and engage with them without spreading yourself too thin?

27:16Chris Rose: Without spreading myself too thin? I cannot speak to that. Like I'm a cheesecloth right now. Like I spread myself pretty thin, but I'm energetic and I just love being around people, like 95 percent extroverted. So that doesn't apply to everybody. But I found the best way to network is first, get out there, get out there, get out there. Don't be afraid to get embarrassed. Don't be afraid to make a mistake, you know, to say something that makes you look silly. Like just you got to show up. You got to get out there. One of the things that I did when I first started getting out was if I didn't know anybody at a conference, I would post up at some like bottleneck or somewhere and just like let people walk by and see like look at my face. And I did that for like a year. But then after that, people were like, oh, I know you. I see you everywhere. You know, aren't you, you know, at all these conferences? I'm like, yes, yes. Like that's my billboard. And so, you know, that's a big part of it. Just get out there.

28:14Chris Rose: The next part is identify who you want to work with. Like what is your ideal client profile? You know, for me, I need to two general client profiles. One is the marketing firms who are spending the most amount of marketing getting the most in terms of leads. You know, so I go to marketing conferences, legal marketing conferences. And then that way I know that I can leverage their marketing. I can take their leads. I can solve a problem for them. On the other side are, you know, smaller firms, newer attorneys or trial attorneys who need these cases, you know, especially firms that are just starting out, solos and duos. And they're hungrier for some of these smaller leads in cases that the larger marketing firms are turning down just because the ROI isn't there. So after going to these so many times now, I know, OK, I know who attends these conferences and those are the ones I want to target. And then, you know, who is going to attend those like those trial skills, you know, conferences. And I go and that's when I target and ask specific questions. So I always know, I always have a goal. Like, who do I want to talk to? Why do I want to talk to them? And how can I help them? How can I provide a solution? Because I'm not always focused on doing something for them. Then I'm like extracting value. And that's gross. Like it's thirsty, you know, so that's really how I approach everything.

29:35Laura Moore: Think of legal marketing. How, in your opinion, should startups think about legal marketing differently from established businesses? What risk and compliance or where strategies work best for fast moving industries?

29:49Chris Rose: Oh, well, OK, fast moving. Now we're not talking about the legal industry. Like it's snails for the most part. I got a letter the other day that said, please fax back your response. What is that? So I know.

30:08Laura Moore: I get a question, too. I'm usually like it takes me a second.

30:13Chris Rose: Yeah, exactly. So fast, fast moving, you know, maybe aspects of the legal industry are. But here's where I am a contrarian to everything. A lot of people, a lot of firms or, you know, legal industry vendors will send their reps to conferences and say, I need a, you know, what is the ROI? Who did you talk to? Who have you signed up? What relationships have you established? That's not what I do. That's not what I do at all. I go to these conferences. And whereas before I thought, you know, I would try to speak to the attorneys, you know, whoever's there and, you know, connect with them and then follow up. That is all wrong. That's all wrong. Go to those conferences. If you want to expand your network and gain greater access to more potential clients, speak to the vendors because who knows everybody? The vendors do. The vendors are the others. Right? The hubs. They have massive networks. And if you want to tap into those networks, talk to the vendors. They are the most underutilized, undervalued people at these conferences. Everybody.

31:20Laura Moore: And this is, I'm sorry, but this is one of the best sentences you just said. And so this is all attorneys should listen up to that. Can you repeat that once again, Chris?

31:28Chris Rose: Yeah. What would I say, that the vendors are the most underutilized resource at conferences or even just in general? If you need something, look at all of the vendors in your network and just say, you know, hey, I'm looking for someone that does this. Or do you know anything about that? The vendors have these networks. They're the ones you should be reaching out to. They are important. Don't treat them like a nuisance. Treat them as a partner, as a friend. So I'm constantly reaching out to my, and I even hate to use the word vendor because it's often derogatory or diminutive or demeaning. But I reach out to all of my friends and I say, hey, I'm looking for, you know, an attorney in this state or, you know, I have questions about this. When I was building out my tech staff, I sent out emails to all of my vendor friends and said, hey, I'm looking for someone that does this. If you can just like put me in contact or even just repost to your network. And suddenly I had 25 meetings set up over the next three days because I utilize those networks. I'm not looking for what can this specific person do for me. It's how can I add value into this ecosystem? And that's what's most important.

32:41Laura Moore: I absolutely love it. So, so, so essential. So, Chris, what role does content strategy play in attracting ideal clients for a modern law practice? How do you balance educational content with conversation focused messaging?

32:55Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Most people get this wrong. If you're on LinkedIn, look around. It's like everybody's posting commercials, you know, like, you know, commercials are bragging. And a lot of times those are kind of the same thing. You know, I, you know, our product does this. Our service, you know, so great. Or, you know, I got, you know, this super huge, you know, verdict or whatever. And like, nobody goes to social media to watch commercials. Like, why are we there? Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like we do all of this to be entertained. And so for the love of God, please don't, you know, four things you should do when you've been into a car accident or, you know, what you should look out for. Punch me in the face.

33:43Chris Rose: Create things that you, that like, you enjoy doing. And so for me, I just like, I'm all about shit posting. And so, like, if you see my posts, like, you know, my Christmas card that I sent out last year is like a early 90s style Sears studio portrait of me and my two cats. But I put my cat, I, but I put my cat's heads on like these children's bodies. And so it looks like a father, you know, who has, you know, has his kids on the weekend. And he's like, we're going to go get our picture taken. It's like, it's disturbing. It's unhinged. It's, you know, slightly depressing. But it's like, everybody I got, it was like, this is hilarious and frightening.

34:31Laura Moore: Oh my God. I love that. I love that.

34:34Chris Rose: And so a lot of it is just like, just put out content that you think is funny that you would want to see, you know? And so I'm just constantly posting about what's going on in my day or, you know, funny things. And I'm just trying to make people laugh. And if I look at what I wrote and it makes me laugh, that's the best content right there because it will get people engaged. It will get people looking for you. It will, you know, people will become interested in you. Like, what's going on with this guy? He's got cats with, you know, children's bodies. Like, something's wrong with this guy. But I want to see what he's going to put out next. And then I just keep doing that over and over. And then, like, one out of ten times that I post something, it's just like, oh, hey, by the way, you know, this is, you know, this is what I do. You know, this is, and I'll, like, put some kind of funny spin on it or something. But I'm constantly reminding people, like, this is what I do, but it's, like, one out of ten times. Because if you're constantly selling, if you're constantly being thirsty, people don't want to engage in that. You know, that's, like, just have fun. Have fun. And other people will have fun with you, and then they will want to work with you. So that's the easiest.

35:44Laura Moore: So true. Couldn't agree more with you, Chris. That's 100%. 100%. Now, with the rise of AI tools and automation, when I say rise, I mean, at the same speed of light, pretty much. What marketing practices do you consider ethical and compliant? And where do you draw a line between outreach and spam?

36:04Chris Rose: Oh, okay. So, maybe this is a hot take, but if you're using AI for, like, marketing outreach, stop that shit. Like, don't do that. That's so, it's so inauthentic. It's lazy. Like, that's, marketing is about, like, creating brand awareness, letting people know who you are. And so, if you're using a robot to do that, like, gross. That's not us. Anytime, everything I do, I have not had one LinkedIn post, Instagram post. I mean, except for the pics, obviously, my cats don't actually have children's bodies. But, you know, it's me. And so, if you're doing it for marketing, don't do that. It's gross.

36:54Chris Rose: In terms of how to best utilize AI, it's incredible what's possible now. And most people don't understand. Automations and workflow for efficiency, fantastic. And it's getting easier and easier all the time. It's just like Legos now. In, you know, in, like, n8n, like, it's incredible what someone with no coding experience can do. But really, AI, every morning when I wake up, I go to my computer. First thing I open up is ChatGPT. And I have a project called Business Coaching. And I named the business coach Paul. Like, he has a personality. And I said, good morning, Paul. Today is, you know.

37:31Laura Moore: It's Paul.

37:31Chris Rose: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, Paul. And I say, good morning, Paul. You know, today is, you know, like, we'll say Friday, August 15th. It's, you know, 8:32 in the morning. I'm feeling this way. I just want to get into a flow. Let's talk about something. Let's discuss, you know, how behavioral economics, you know, influences people when I'm educating them. I will say, okay, well, you know, you should, you know, first talk about, you know, recognize that people are more prone to loss aversion. And they believe that they make decisions based on logic. But in actuality, they base their decisions on emotion and then justify it with logic. Let's talk about some of your marketing. How can we tool this to, you know, utilize those concepts? And then we go back and forth and we have a conversation. That's what AI is. It's something that you can talk to and use to develop your own strategy, to highlight those areas that you don't know you don't know. And that's where it's best utilized. Like, think of it as a friend. Think of it as a coach. Think of it as a partner. Don't think of it as just like glorified Google because then you're neglecting it. And so have a conversation. Talk to it.

38:44Laura Moore: Yes. Yes. Talking about a friend. So my, you know, I had a question last time, you know, and so my son was like, mom, you know, you're using this AI, you're using it too much, even though he's using it too. But I do use it quite a bit. But then of course, you know, I look over everything. Like little, every single word that it puts out because, but it's, I love it. So yeah.

39:05Chris Rose: I'm going to turn the tables on you. Can we do that real quick?

39:08Laura Moore: I'll be there. Go ahead. Let's do it. Yes.

39:09Chris Rose: Laura. Laura. Welcome to the real quick LegalFlare podcast. I'm your host, Chris Fucking Rose. Laura. Give me an example of how you use AI. And I don't mean like I use it for this. I mean, tell me in what manner you use it. How do you relate to it? Like just what you would do.

39:29Laura Moore: So I had not given a specific name like you did. But I call it my best friend, actually. It's my best friend. And it's genderless. It's not female or male. So, you know, it's just super, super intelligent. It has the highest IQ. I'm sorry to say to all my human friends, which I have quite a few as well, but it's really my best friend. The nameless best friend has the highest IQ. And so I use it for really everything. I barely use Google anymore, you know, daily. And it's fascinating. It gives me the answers beyond belief, you know? And so it took me a little while, you know, to educate myself how to ask those questions properly. Yeah.

40:13Chris Rose: What kind of, what kind of answers? What kind of questions? Like, like I was saying, I use it to talk, you know, here I, you know, this is what I'm doing. What do you think about this idea? You know, point out the gaps. Like how are you using it? Like, can I get a specific example?

40:30Laura Moore: Yeah. So for instance, I need to come up with some marketing, you know, ideas for my social media, you know, to talk to, to present to my, you know, but my team who does the marketing, you know, so it's just that. So I would ask, you know, what do you think, you know, what would be a good ideas? Something unique, something a little bit different, you know, where I can show my face, but sometimes I don't want to show my face, which I know it's, it works miracles when you show your face, because that's what people like best because they get to know you and your company through you talking to the camera. But so I would say what, like, what can you give me today? Like what, what's the model, you know, or can you break it down? Can you give me five good points or five topics for my discussion that I can report in the next two weeks, maybe?

41:16Chris Rose: Okay. What is the, what is your prompt? Like when you say, like for my business coach, I say you are, imagine you are a startup founder with, you know, 10 plus years of startup experience. You grew a business to a billion dollar valuation, and now you act as both a tech coach and a venture capitalist. And so using that knowledge, how would you, and then blah, blah, blah. So for your marketing prompts, what do you put in?

41:51Laura Moore: So I would say, can you come up with, and then I think of, do I want five or 10 or whatever number? Can you come up like recently plugged that in, come up with five ideas for, you know, exciting ideas or comprehensive or unique ideas for Moore Funding marketing on social media?

42:16Chris Rose: Oh, okay. Let's try this. Who, what is your favorite marketing book? Who is your favorite, like marketing mentor? Who resonates with you?

42:25Laura Moore: Jen Gore. I love Jen Gore.

42:27Chris Rose: Jen Gore. Let's, I love Jen Gore. No shame to Jen Gore. Who would you go even higher? Because she's only been around, you know, in this space for like five years. I think like, you know, like Gary Vee or, I don't know, Rory Sutherland or, you know, like who are the, like at the pinnacle, the top, is there anybody that comes to mind?

42:49Laura Moore: I mean, goodness, what's his name? I can't think of a name right now. I think I've seen you guys in the seminars on social media. He's from California. He was working. He has his own, he just started his own company. I think also some, some similar to what you do. Lawyer referral.

43:06Chris Rose: Bob Simon.

43:07Laura Moore: Yes. Bob Simon. That's it.

43:09Chris Rose: Sure. Sure. So I would challenge you next time you do it, say, imagine that you are, you know, this person and, you know, kind of get the AI to, you know, fit into that role. And if that's the person you really want to emulate, you know, create a dialogue back and forth. And then your marketing content will begin to emulate and, you know, mirror that in a lot of ways. But, you know, it's fun. I would just challenge you to do more. And then next time we speak, I'll say like, okay, how did it work? What'd you think?

43:43Laura Moore: Yeah, definitely. We'll try that. Thank you so much for the tip.

43:45Chris Rose: Awesome.

43:46Laura Moore: Yeah. So I'm still exploring. I'm still learning, you know, as I go. And then it's, I just, I'm fascinated with it. I cannot imagine my life without the AI right now.

43:55Chris Rose: Yeah, exactly. Fascinated. That's the best first step. Be fascinated.

44:00Laura Moore: So let's, Chris, move on to our next question, if that's okay with you. We're going to move to a fun part of our conversation, and that is startups and cats. If you were advising a legal tech startup focused on cat related ventures, maybe a pet tech or animal welfare platforms, what unique legal considerations would you highlight during early stage product development and fundraising?

44:29Chris Rose: Oh, I could write a book on this. Like, first and foremost, talk to your potential clients. Like, who's going to be buying this? You got to talk to people. And so when I was building LegalFlare, I would always go and just like talk to people. How do, what does this sound like? Tell me I'm an idiot. Does this make sense? What do you need? What's going on in your space? You know, when we talk about referrals, what does that look like? And so if you were, if someone wanted to, you know, create a cat, you know, legal tech something, I've, you know, maybe not talk to cats so much, but, you know, maybe talk to their owners. You know, what does your cat do? What kind of legal trouble is your cat getting in? I know mine, they're like, they're constantly threatening the neighbors, stalking. And so like, you might want to go into like a criminal defense side, like cat criminal legal tech.

45:24Chris Rose: But you know, the first thing is always talk to people, figure out if there's really a need there. And then when someone says, oh, you know, this is, you know, I got my, my damn cat is always, you know, stabbing my neighbors. And it's like, okay, well, next time that happens, why don't you give me a call and I'll defend your cat or I'll defend you or blah, blah, blah. And then, so every time they have a problem, whatever it is, say, you'll do that. Yeah, I'll do that. I'll work on that. And then that's how you begin to work in that space and solve that problem. Maybe long-term that's not the real solution or the real problem you're addressing, but it will always branch out into something. So talk, listen, solve, and then don't be afraid to pivot when it comes to fundraising.

46:08Chris Rose: I mean, that's a problem, especially, you know, like you've got to have your financials down and you've got to have projections. You've got to have energy. Everybody says that when they want to fundraise, like they fund the person because they believe this person can accomplish something. It doesn't matter what they work on. I believe in this person or their team. And so for me, it's harder. I'm a law firm. So I could only fundraise from attorneys. I'm not an ABS or anything like that. So if I were to fundraise, I would go straight to lawyers and just say, look, this is a problem. This is how I'm solving it. If you give me money, this is how I'm going to implement the money to create a better solution, you know, through, you know, increased bandwidth or, you know, better marketing, but, you know, having that plan as to what their money is going to do, what it's going to look like as we grow. So you really have to visual, envision, like that's what a CEO does.

47:01Laura Moore: And vision. Absolutely. And talking about fundraising, I'm actually, this is my second year as a chair of GAWL Foundation, which stands for Georgia Association for Women Lawyers. And that's the longest living, still alive and very well doing organization, women lawyers organization in Georgia, which has been in existence for 94 years. And as a fundraising chair, that's exactly what I do. And so if you are, if you have any partners, attorneys, friends who would like to, you know, donate towards the most amazing goal of giving scholarships to female law students in Georgia. And as for the second and third year, you know, law school is three years. So second and third year of law school, that's what we do. So with welcoming donations at any time, just incredible.

47:51Chris Rose: I love that, like giving back and especially, I truly believe that women, I mean, obviously women are underrepresented in the legal field and we would all be so much better if we balance that out. I mean, honestly, I think the legal field would be better if we just tip that entirely and made it more women than men. I mean, cause like I just have a lot more faith and confidence in women as, you know, as leaders in the industry. But I think we'll get there eventually. I hang out with a lot of guys. I'm not impressed.

48:26Laura Moore: Well, you'd come, come to Georgia. I'll introduce you to quite a few very powerful attorneys here, female attorneys in Georgia. So yeah, come over.

48:34Chris Rose: I would love that.

48:35Laura Moore: Yes. Yes. That's a point. As a founder, what lessons from building LegalFlare would you apply to founders of pet tech startups? We're still talking about the cat.

48:45Chris Rose: Oh, oh yeah. Okay. Lessons. Don't be afraid to look stupid. Like that's what it is. When I first started doing this and, you know, getting into the referral space, I was always very nervous about like telling my idea to someone and they were going to say, that's stupid. You can't do this for that reason. And then people would realize that I don't know what I'm doing. Like it's, I'm just kind of making this up as I go along. I'm like 90% confidence, 10% ability. Like that's what it was. And I was really concerned that if I said it too much, like somebody might steal my idea or realize like, he doesn't know what he's doing. It's just, you know, kind of faking it. But the more I spoke to people and the more I realized most people would just say, oh, well, did you think about this? Or what about that? Or I love this idea. Let me introduce you to someone. And so it's always better to get an answer at the potential expense of looking stupid. And so don't be afraid. Don't be scared. Just get out there, ask questions.

49:52Chris Rose: Get the, actually, this is something Jen Gore taught me. She said, there are so many people that want to ask questions where they kind of know the answer. They'll ask 10 questions to confirm what they know because it makes them look smarter. And she said, I ask a hundred questions and 60 of them make me look stupid. But those 40 questions that I got answered, like that, you know, created positive movement as opposed to like somebody who only answered 10, I'm progressing four times as fast as they are just because I, sometimes I ask stupid questions and I've taken that to heart. And she's one of the most incredible people I know. And so if she's not afraid to ask a stupid question, I'm going to ask all the stupid questions I can find.

50:35Laura Moore: So I'm exactly like you and Jen, you know, I've been always that kind of person. I'm teaching my son to do exactly the same thing. And he's like, no mom. It's like, but hopefully he will say yes one day. Hopefully whatever I put in him will come out in the most positive way one day. Yeah. And on the personal note, Chris, do you have any cat coded productivity tips or rituals that help you stay focused during long product development cycles? Because I know they can be long.

51:03Chris Rose: Yeah. Yeah. The first thing I would say is, so you can't see it now, but I turned my closet. Like these over here are floor-to-ceiling windows, gorgeous view of downtown. It's incredible. That's where I used to put my desk and it was still hard for me to concentrate. And part of that reason was my cats were always coming up and like, you know, talking to me and just hanging out. And I realized that if I really want to focus, if I really want to put my head down and make this work, I have to lock myself away. And so I locked myself in my closet when I work. And so my cats can't, you know, distract me.

51:38Laura Moore: My cats do you have, Chris?

51:40Chris Rose: Two.

51:41Laura Moore: Two. Okay. What's their names?

51:43Chris Rose: Sadie and Brady.

51:44Laura Moore: Oh, I love it.

51:46Chris Rose: Yeah. I love them. They're around here. They're, you know, probably concocting some type of plan for world domination. But yeah, the, it's, you got to focus. You got to find that time to get into flow and focus. And just sometimes it means, you know, locking yourself in the closet for a bit.

52:04Laura Moore: Very true. Very true. We have to do that every day. When you think of your vision and legacy, look in a hand. What are your top three bets for the future of legal services in the next, let's say, you know, five to 10 years? And how is LegalFlare positioning itself to lead and adapt? And I know five or 10 years from now with such a light, you know, speed of AI development may seem like way too far fetched. But let's try and imagine.

52:35Chris Rose: I do this all the time. Because being a founder, being a CEO is about looking into the future and making bets on what's, on what that's going to look like. And then saying, okay, I can create that or I can add to that. So what does the legal industry look like in 10 years? We're going to see a lot more in terms of market consolidation. You're already seeing that from like big firms like, you know, Sweet James, obviously. Morgan & Morgan. You know, they're coming in, they're gobbling up more market share. And what that is going to mean is that it's going to be harder to compete with those. And they're going to raise margins and kind of push out some of those smaller firms or get gobbled up. And so you're going to see a lot more competition, a lot more, or a lot less differentiation in the market. That's going to be inevitable. The money go, or, you know, the market goes where the money goes. And right now they've got a lot of market and persuasion.

53:31Chris Rose: You're going to see a lot more in terms of AI sophistication. You know, the menial tasks like, you know, document review or, you know, focusing on, you know, drafting motions or whatever. A lot of that will be able to be done by AI. And I don't care about what anybody says in terms of being scared or I'm not going to adopt it. Fine. You're going to, you, if you don't adopt this, you are the ones who are going to lose your jobs. Not the people who, right. And so part of, I think what we're also going to see is that there's going to be a lot more focus on those human components like outreach and actually talking to people and being face to face that, you know, AI can't take over. But there's going to be huge jumps in efficiencies, especially as the old guard, all these old bastards who don't want to use AI begin to die off, who are still using fax machines. They are just not going to be able to keep up.

54:34Chris Rose: And so when I look at all of that, what does that look like for LegalFlare? I think that in order to service some of this, for one, as you see more, you know, market consolidation at the top, the ones at the bottom are going to get, begin to lose out. And I think that I can fit into that niche to service those smaller ones by taking the leads that are declined and moving them to the smaller law firms who don't have the marketing budget to compete with these, you know, with these monsters, the elephants in the room, you know, the beasts really. And so the way I foresee this is I think of LegalFlare as being like indoor plumbing or electricity. Before, people would, you know, take a bucket out to the well or they would, you know, pull a line from whatever electric lines are out front. But as it becomes more and more ubiquitous and the use is there, then we build it into our systems, into our house so that now we don't look around and see wires. We don't look around and see, you know, indoor plumbing because it's invisible. And I think that LegalFlare should be invisible. But you would know if your power went out or you would know if you get a leak or something, you know, when it's not there anymore. And moving leads, moving referrals, once you capture that lead and moving it somewhere else so that there's the potential for review or signing it at the outside jurisdiction or practice area so that you retain that value as opposed to just like throwing it out the window. And so that's where I see LegalFlare going. And then even beyond that, it's just like the data accumulation because that's what's super important. Having, you know.

56:17Laura Moore: We should best, best of luck. And I know you'll make it happen. So, again, like I said, I cannot wait for us to connect again on another episode in a year and then again in two and then going forward every year, you know, I just see where we are at that time. Yeah. Chris, thank you so much again for sharing your insights today. If somebody is looking for you and or LegalFlare, how can they locate you?

56:39Chris Rose: Yeah. First, chris.rose at legalflare.com or go on to LinkedIn, Chris effing Rose. I'm everywhere. I try to be easy to find or just show up at any random conference. You'll see me there. I try to be as noticeable as possible. I really appreciate you having me on. This has been a lot of fun. You are incredibly engaging and energetic. And I've been looking forward to this for a while.

57:08Laura Moore: Absolutely, Chris. Again, thank you so much for talking with me about the LegalFlare origins and referral network, revenue organization, and optimization, marketing ROI, networking strategies, startup focus, legal insights with a cat segment. And your perspective on the future of legal services. But before we conclude this episode, as I mentioned, I have a fun pop-up question for you. You ready?

57:33Chris Rose: I'm excited. Let's go.

57:34Laura Moore: Okay, let's do it. If you could change one thing about your journey so far in life, what would that be and why?

57:45Chris Rose: That's a tough one. Because it's, I often look back, I really squandered my 20s. I just, you know, spent a lot of time smoking weed and playing Halo. But that also made me who I am. So if I would change anything, the one thing I would change is that when I was in seventh grade, I moved the thermostat down to 60 degrees. And I forgot to change it back. And when my whole family got home from baseball practice, the house was 60 degrees. And my stepfather said, who did this? Who did this? And I said, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. And they automatically went to my brother, who would lie a lot and was always touching the thermostat. And they said, did you do this? And he said, no, it wasn't me. And then they said, don't lie to us. And that's how I knew I would get away with it. And so that year, he didn't get to ride. And he rides at the South Alabama State. If I would change anything, I would go back and I would fess up to that cry.

58:49Laura Moore: That's awesome. Again, that was the attorney, Chris Rose, founder of LegalFlare.com, ladies and gentlemen. I want to thank you all for watching and listening to our episode today. For more tips and tricks on legal funding and personal injury law-related topics, follow me, like, download and subscribe to Moore Injury. It's Time for Moore Injury Funding podcasts and also follow Moore Injury Funding for legal tips and legal funding help on all podcasts and not just podcast platforms, but all social media platforms. And, of course, my website at mooreinjuryfunding.com. I can't wait to see you, my dear viewers and listeners, at our next upcoming episode. Until then, be well. Thank you. Thank you.

59:26Chris Rose: Thank you.